Article | CASE STUDY
Adding Wood to the Fire Is a Virtue, but Making a Fire Is the Crux—Interview with Ching-Yao Liao
The recipient of the 2nd Chi Po-Lin Documentary Award in 2023 was The Elimination, which also won second place at the New Taipei City Documentary Film Award in the same year. It was a short documentary film produced by Ching-Yao Liao, once again in the role of a director, 8 years after his last directorial work, Life on the Rooftop.Cinematography has been an intrinsic part of Liao's life since he was in college. He has worked as a cameraman for many outstanding works, including Days We Stared at the Sun, Heaven on the 4th Floor, Salli, Hunter Brothers, Panay, Irritable Boy, The Walkers, The Good Daughter, The Man Who Couldn't Leave, and more. He has been involved in almost every kind of filming work, from TV series and feature films, short films and documentaries, to VR, and his role as a cinematographer is naturally what comes to mind first for most people when discussing him."I'm actually a middle-aged emerging director", Liao described himself with a self-deprecating smile.I was curious to know how Liao decided on the division of his work as both a cinematographer and a director. He replied that even he was still not sure. At this stage, he does not want to define himself as a documentary director or a feature film cinematographer because he still enjoys the process of gaining insights through different fields. He also feels that he still needs those insights to become a better film creator."There's a quote that I heard in an interview for a biographical documentary years ago that I've kept in the back of my mind until now. It says that the director is the one who builds the bonfire, and the cinematographer is the one who adds the wood to the fire. I really think I'd very much like to be the one who adds the firewood."Maybe that's how you can describe him: adding wood to the fire is a virtue, but building the fire for yourself is the crux of the matter.The Elimination won the 2023 New Taipei City Documentary Film Award and the 2nd Chi Po-Lin Documentary Award (courtesy of the Department of Information, New Taipei City Government)Frogs Croaking in the DrawerChing-Yao Liao's first-ever directorial work was The Dreamer, his graduation project. The story is set in an apocalyptic world, where the protagonist escapes from a laboratory and is chased by people along the way. Without any assistance, the protagonist can only keep on running away endlessly. Liao both directed and starred in this experimental sci-fi film, which was shortlisted for the Non-Commercial Short Film category in the 2nd Taipei Film Awards."Let me be frank, The Dreamer was shortlisted at the Taipei Film Festival because no one else was making short films at that time. I was asked to help shoot several of the short films that were selected, including Layover by Ko-Shang Shen and Still Water Peace Die by Yi-Chen Wu."When I found out that the interview was with Ching-Yao Liao, the first question I jotted down for the interview script was to ask him whether his work as a professional cinematographer has affected his work as a director. From an outsider's point of view, one would think that it would be an advantageous skill to have, but after asking Liao, he told me that although being a cinematographer has brought him a lot of hard-earned experience in life, it is also the reason why he feels the need to re-examine the relationship between himself and cinematography.When compared to documentaries, Liao has actually spent more time as a cameraman for TV series and films over the years. He said that since feature films have scripts, beyond the text, not only does the director have his own ideas on how to film, but even the crew in the other departments, such as cinematography, lighting, art, and so on, can have some space to consider how to present each scene. In the early years of his career, he was always trying to offer suggestions during work where possible. Whenever he found that the director was hesitant or backing off on a filming decision, he would immediately present his own ideas to fill the gap, which he thought demonstrated responsibility and diligence. That was until a senior cameraman gave a kind reminder to Liao during a phone call, letting him know that some people in his circle felt that he was overly subjective and that it was bit difficult to work together with him."At that time, I didn't understand that when a director hesitates or pulls back, it's not necessarily because he needs advice, what he needs is maybe just companionship. This was something that I overlooked." Here, Liao frowns a little, as if he was still bothered by the shortcomings of his younger self.This seems to be the case with conscientious people—they know more about how to do things than how to behave around others."It's just that I still could not be sure: when a director or producer comes to you to work on a project, do they need your ideas or for you to serve their ideas? I was very confused."To make a living, Liao could only continue to take on projects and shoot movies with this question in mind. During that time, he would complete a TV film and then shoot a feature film. After the feature film was finished, he would shoot a short film, and every day was filled with work. Financially speaking, it was good to have projects coming in all the time, but this intensive workload soon brought the first bottleneck in his career as a cinematographer."I realized that no matter what subject-matter or story I was shooting, I would always produce the same thing. I had no idea what I was doing. It was all just rubbish!"It was after a year or two of reviewing his work that Liao suddenly realized he had shot all the stories in the same way because his filming skills had become kind of second nature,—he could do it even without thinking about it. This realization terrified him because he had no idea what he was going through at the time, except that for a while he couldn't answer any of the questions when people came to discuss work and asked him about his ideas on the film as the cinematographer."I think that was the first time I opened that drawer of mine, but I didn't realize it yet."The drawer analogy is a story that Liao often quotes these days.At the time of our interview, he was filming an art-related show for Taiwan Public Television Service with photographer Chao-Liang Shen as his subject. One time on a break from filming, he and Shen started chatting. Shen suddenly mentioned that he had a drawer where he kept some of his first works of photography. Every once in a while, he would open that drawer to see if his relationship with photography was still filled with passion and fun as it was in the beginning."When I heard those words, I was on the verge of tears, because I remembered that I hadn't opened that drawer between me and film creation in a long time, and maybe I wouldn't even be able to open it anymore."Fortunately, after the conversation with Shen, Ching-Yao Liao confirmed that his drawer was not stuck. It was at least halfway open, and the faint sound of frogs croaking could be heard coming out of the drawer every now and then.Photograph of the shooting work for the film Salli (Photography by: Hsin-Che Lee, courtesy of Bole Film)Origin of the Frogs"Frogs, class Amphibia, order Anura, they lay eggs in water that hatch into tadpoles, which use gills for respiration. After metamorphosis, they grows four limbs, and the adult begins to breathe through its lungs and skin before it can live away from water."This description is the biology of frogs that every child most likely learns in elementary school. It never occurred to me that it would be such an apt analogy to the production process of a documentary film.The motive of creation is like an egg, the fieldwork and filming are the incubation period, and the large amount of material are the tadpoles hatched after a lot of time and effort, while the editing process is strikingly similar to the metamorphosis stage, not only growing front and back limbs that can swim and jump in the right places, but also selectively getting rid of the unnecessary long tail.In this way, to certain extent, I observed the complete life cycle of The Elimination.The first time I heard Ching-Yao Liao mention the shooting schedule of The Elimination was in 2020, when the story was still a fragile translucent egg. Even the title of the film was not decided yet. The only certain thing was that the main characters would be frogs. At that time, I asked Liao why he wanted to film frogs. His answer was simple and straightforward: "Because I don't want to film people. I need to film something other than people."Although I felt that there were probably many stories hidden behind this answer, I didn't ask beyond, out of courtesy, because I didn't know him very well at that time.But I can remember that I often heard that he and the pre-production team had traveled to different cities to look for traces of frogs. I couldn't help but suggest that he should quickly go apply for funding, otherwise just the travel expenses alone would be a huge cost. However, Liao said that he was in no hurry, and that he was using his free time from other shooting projects to do the fieldwork and film at his own pace. More importantly, he felt he needed time to think about the core message of this film.Looking for spot-legged tree frogs (Photography by Howard Yu, courtesy of Director Ching-Yao Liao)During the initial stage, Liao focused on the coexistence of humans and frogs, and even attempted to look at humans from frogs' point of view, delivering an ecological spectacle. But this idea didn't last too long and he soon did away with it."I think I was kind of forcing the situation with my idea when I first started with the fieldwork. What I mean by 'forcing the situation' is that I didn't understand the topic at all, but since I was a cinematographer, I was highly aware of imagery and I knew what kind of images would captivate the audience. However, all that I could present was just on the surface level. It's like I'm filming a cup: I can judge whether it looks good or not, or how to make it look better, but I have no clue what's inside the cup."From Frog Coexistence to RemovalIt was in early 2021 that I crossed paths again with Ching-Yao Liao and his project. He was the proposal applicant and I was one of the judges that year at the National Culture and Arts Foundation's (NCAF) Creative Documentary Film grant selection meeting for documentary works. At that time, The Elimination wasn't called that yet. The title of his production project was just one word: "Frogs", while the main theme of the film had already changed to the invasion of spot-legged tree frogs (Polypedates megacephalus), an exotic species. One of the key reasons for this change was that he learned from the annual frog survey report of the Society for Taiwan Amphibian Conservation (STAC) that among the 30-odd frog species in Taiwan, the invasive spot-legged tree frog had shockingly become the most observed frog species in the wild [1]. Faced with the spreading invasion of spot-legged tree frogs, STAC designated 2021 as the year for the removal of the invasive species, and has been actively leading volunteers to carry out the removal work.Set photo of The Elimination, spot-legged tree frog (Photography by: Ching-Yao Liao, courtesy of Director Ching-Yao Liao)What was particularly impressive about Liao's proposal that year was that he chose a format radically different from the usual ecological films. He created a minimalistic trailer, eliminating colors, clear language, flash cards, and subtitles, leaving only pure images, human voices, and the croaking of frogs.Such a choice can perhaps be interpreted as a question thrown out by Liao: Does a documentary on an ecological issue only have one way to tell a story, in the form of narration or reportage? But nobody could answer his question at the time.It was a pity that Liao did not receive a grant for that year's creative project, but he said it was a good thing."I think it was because I didn't express myself clearly when I made the proposal. I've never been good at speaking on such occasions. But my lack of clarity may also reflect that I have not thought it through clearly enough. So since I didn't get the grant, I will go back and think about it more thoroughly. It is better this way." Ching-Yao Liao said at that time.He said that although he quickly decided to change the topic of his film from human-frog coexistence to the removal of exotic species because of STAC's survey report, it was only after he came into contact with the researchers and volunteers of STAC that he began to realize the complexity of exotic species removal and human-frog relationships.In the era of globalization, in addition to the cross-border trade of goods and commercial activities, human travel activities have also become increasingly frequent, and people may inadvertently act as carriers of plant seeds, or eggs and pupae of insects across borders. Moreover, to satisfy their own desires to own exotic pets, human beings have never ceased to import all kinds of rare animals into their own country by means of legal or even illegal channels. This is how all kinds of exotic creatures are brought to a new environment in a foreign land.Survival and reproduction are the nature of all living things, regardless of whether they are native or exotic; all living things follow their instincts and try their best to live and reproduce in order to perpetuate life. However, when exotic species try to survive, they may compete with native species for resources, including food and habitat, or even directly prey on native species, leading to the crisis of declining ecological diversity. To prevent this from happening, removal becomes the last resort.But should all alien species be removed? When and how should they be removed? What should be done after removal? This involves scientific investigation, bioethics, and animal welfare planning and thinking, each of which is extremely complicated, so it is no wonder that Ching-Yao Liao felt the need to spend more time to clarify his ideas.Set photo of The Elimination, the soon-to-be-removed spot-legged tree frog (Photography by: Howard Yu, courtesy of Director Ching-Yao Liao)For Liao, there was another reason he was glad he didn't get the grant for his creative project back then.A Director Who Uses Filming as a Mask"It is often said that the cinematographer is the director's eyes, and I have been doing this for years. And because I'm so used to doing it, it's a bit of an obstacle for me to shift my role and become a director, because I have to start to be my own eyes. I remember that during the review session, Director Ming-Chuan Huang asked me something like: 'Are you ready to be a director?' I couldn't answer the question at the moment. The reason I couldn't answer was simple: I really wasn't ready. I felt as like a wolf in sheep's clothing, that I was hiding my role as a director under the guise of a cinematographer. I was using my expertise in filming to make a proposal, trying to fool everyone. So I'm very grateful to Director Huang for forcing me to admit this."In his sophomore year of university, Liao went to Director Ming-Chuan Huang's studio for an internship, and the experience of helping to shoot Flat Tyre with Director Huang was his introduction to filming. Perhaps because of this familiarity, Director Huang was able to tell at a glance how he was doing even though he hadn't seen Liao for a long time.Liao knows that he should have taken up the responsibility of directing earlier, but he had been trying to hide behind his cameraman self. There was a hurdle in the back of his mind that only he understood and was able to overcome, but it was hard to voice it to others. It's like a tadpole that seems to be swimming around carefree, but only the tadpole itself can shoulder that vulnerable moment where all internal organs and tissues are re-structured before turning into a frog.Protagonist +1, +1As autumn of 2021 set in, the temperature began to drop and various frogs gradually settled into a slower pace, but it was still the breeding season of the spot-legged tree frogs. Spot-legged tree frogs are native to South China and India, and their appearance is almost identical to that of Taiwan's endemic white-lipped tree frogs (Polypedates braueri), with very similar living habits, too. However, spot-legged tree frogs' breeding season is earlier and longer, and in addition to laying eggs more frequently, they also lay a greater number of eggs than white-lipped tree frogs. Spot-legged tree frogs are able to lay an average of 600 eggs at a time, which is twice as many as the number of eggs laid by white-lipped tree frogs.After coming into the habitat of white-lipped tree frogs, spot-legged tree frogs will quickly dominate the area and consume food rapidly due to their larger numbers. In addition, adult spot-legged tree frogs and their tadpoles prey on the tadpoles of Taiwan's native species, which puts the white-lipped tree frog and other endemic species under great pressure to survive. Although snakes and birds prey on spot-legged tree frogs, the population is now too large to be affected by natural predators, and the damage to the ecosystem can only be mitigated through manual removal.Liao, who continued to document STAC's campaign against the spot-legged tree frogs, adjusted the shooting schedule again, and this time, The Elimination successfully won a place in the list of NCAF Regular Grants. With this production budget, he was able to travel to Caotun, Nantou to shoot another new protagonist of the story: cane toads (Rhinella marina).Set photo of The Elimination, cane toad (Photography by: Ching-Yao Liao, courtesy of Director Ching-Yao Liao)The cane toad is native to the American tropics and can grow to over 30 cm in length and weigh up to 2 kg. With its formidable size, the cane toad naturally eats a large amount of food. It will prey on any small creatures it can catch and even eat dog food. In the past, the cane toad had never been found in the wild in Taiwan, until it was first sighted in a private garden in Caotun, Nantou in November 2021.In the early years, some places introduced the cane toad into their countries in order to serve as pest control for commercial crops, but this resulted in an ecological hazard. The cane toad has venom glands on its body, and it can squirt the venom up to a distance of more than 1 m, which is a threat to wildlife and may even cause the deaths of dogs and cats by accidental ingestion. In addition, it has an impressive reproductive capacity, laying from 8,000 to 30,000 eggs at a time, which will have a serious impact on the ecosystem if the population spreads. Therefore, the removal of cane toads immediately became a priority for STAC. They have worked with local residents, citizen scientists, and volunteers to carry out intensive removal operations and more than 7,500 individuals have been removed as of June 2023.As the filming progressed, the cast of The Elimination grew, and in addition to the spot-legged tree frog and the cane toad, there was also a new human character: Yi-Ju Yang. She has a PhD in Zoology from National Taiwan University and currently works in the Department of Natural Resources and Environmental Studies, National Dong Hwa University. She is also the president of STAC. For many years, she has engaged in the ecological research of frogs and promoting their conservation. She is even known as the "Frog Princess" in academic circles.Although Liao already knew Dr. Yi-Ju Yang since the beginning of filming, the decision to make her a part of the narrative was only made later. Liao, who originally said he didn't want to film people, had once again undergone a transformation, and The Elimination story was getting closer and closer to the stage of becoming a frog.Dr. Yang Yi-Ju during the removal work (Photography by: Howard Yu, courtesy of Director Ching-Yao Liao)Becoming a Frog with an Artistic Spirit, but Also Relatable"On the first day we met, Po-Wen Chen told me that after a film is produced, out of ten people, seven may like it and three may not. Or it could be the other way around, only three may like it and seven may not. And then he asked: 'Who do you want to show your film to? Is it for those seven people or those three people?'I think at the beginning I thought it would be good enough if only three people could understand the film, but after the baptism of the workshop over the past one or two weeks, I hope to work towards the direction of seven people watching it."The "workshop", as Ching-Yao Liao calls it, is planned by NCAF for documentaries that have received NCAF grants, where three experienced editors, Ching-Sung Liao, Cheng-Ching Lei, and Po-Wen Chen, accompany the creative team through the final stage of editing.Po-Wen Chen, who was mainly responsible for mentoring The Elimination, worked with Ching-Yao Liao for two days, during which they spent a lot of time chatting instead of working on the editing. They were not chattering aimlessly, however, but building a process—getting to know each other and being known, because only when they know each other well enough can the editor help guide the film back to the director's original vision, instead of straying away.Documentary Creation: 2023 Mentoring Project - Editing Workshop, one-on-one discussion between veteran editor Po-Wen Chen and director Ching-Yao Liao Looking back at the history of The Elimination, from the ecological visual spectacle to the invasion and removal of foreign species, some decisions kept on shifting, but there were also some ideas that remained unchanged. Those shifts and unchanged parts together shaped the story into a frog and its proper habitat."To put it plainly, I still like works that are both commercial and artistic, that is to say, they must have an artistic spirit yet people must be willing to watch them. This is very difficult, but very important, because you can't make a film just for yourself to watch."Liao, who originally said he didn't want to make a film about people, eventually couldn’t avoid pondering on human beings.The story of The Elimination is all about the tug of war between two opposing forces. Whether it is the seemingly peaceful coexistence of humans and frogs at the beginning or the invasive species that continues to multiply and fight against human's ongoing removal efforts, Liao believes that this endless cycle can be used as a metaphor for any sector of human society, and it even subtly reflects his beliefs in art."If we set aside good and bad, I would consider myself like a spot-legged tree frog, wanting to keep fighting back and resisting through art, so that my original intention for film will not be removed and destroyed.I'm not sure if Ching-Yao Liao realized himself that the drawer between him and his film creation is completely open and the young frog that was originally hiding and croaking inside has already jumped out. So now, he should be able to close the drawer again without any concerns and continue shooting.On-set photo of The Elimination (Photography by: Howard Yu, courtesy of Director Ching-Yao Liao)Postscript:It's a tough job trying to make a draft from the interviews with Ching-Yao Liao, because it's not easy to interview him. The problem is not that he doesn't want to talk or express himself well. On the contrary, he talks a lot, but he's always thinking about others more than himself. He prefers to keep it all back and not using it to make himself look better. Or whenever we met up, rather than talking about himself, he is always more interested in discussing ideas of whom he can work with and what he should film next."There's not really anything about me to write about. Why don't you just write an invitation for people to come make films with me?"Although this sounded like a joke, I believed him because of the way his eyes lit up when he said it. At the last minute before the deadline, I decided to announce it here: You are welcome to ask Ching-Yao Liao to make a film together.Annotations[1] According to the 2020 survey report of STAC, that year was the first time that the exotic spot-legged tree frogs had crowded out the common native species, the La Touche's frog, to become the most populous frog species observed in a single year. Spot-legged tree frogs were first discovered in Changhua in 2006, and have proliferated throughout Taiwan in just 15 years.*Translator: Linguitronics
2025.01.10